For our December book club episode of Unabridged, join Ashley and Jen as we discuss Cynthia Hand's The Afterlife of Holly Chase. This modern young adult retelling of A Christmas Carol is packed with holiday spirit, humor, and poignant themes. Alongside our book discussion, Ashley and Jen also share our book pairings to complement your reading experience. Don’t miss this festive conversation!
Join us on Patreon to have access to our back catalog of recordings and resources. Also, just a reminder that this season, we now have a shop on Patreon where you can purchase book discussion guides and other resources. We appreciate your support so much.
Bookish Check-in
Ashley - Rebecca Yarros’s Fourth Wing (Bookshop.org | Libro.fm)
Jen - Mona Susan Power’s A Council of Dolls (Bookshop.org | Libro.fm)
Our Book Club Pick
Cynthia Hand's The Afterlife of Holly Chase (Bookshop.org | Libro.fm)
Our Pairings
Ashley - T. J. Klune’s Under the Whispering Door (Bookshop.org | Libro.fm)
Jen - Lauren Oliver’s Before I Fall (Bookshop.org | Libro.fm)
Unabridged Favorites
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Full Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Jen: Hi, everyone. Welcome to Unabridged. This is episode 283. It's our December book club episode, and we are talking about Cynthia Hand's The Afterlife of Holly Chase. Before we get started, I just want to remind everyone once again about Patreon. We have a great selection of backlist episodes
[00:00:53] and resources that you can access if you'd like to help support the podcast. And Patreon has a new feature where you can buy individual guides and we've published a lot of those there. So book discussion guides that you can use if you're a teacher or for your book club. So you can check all of that out at patreon.com/unabridgedpod. All right, to get started, we're going to do our bookish check in. Ashley, what are you reading?
[00:01:19] Ashley: So I, one of the things I'm reading right now is I'm finally joining the Fourth Wing bandwagon. I have waited a long time to read this one and partially it was because I was trying to let the series come along farther. That was the strategy was just to be like, okay, now Iron Flame's also out.
[00:01:38] And then the third book, I believe... Is this right Jen? It's on the horizon. So all that felt good. But also I told you before we started recording, I've been holding onto it and not knowing what I was holding onto it for. And it was just one of those moments where I was like, the moment has arrived. The library hold comes in and you're like, yep, this is the time.
[00:01:58] This is the time to read something fun and fluffy and easy and very immersive. So I haven't read very much and I am embarrassed to give much of a summary because I feel sure that most people listening know more about this than I do, but that's okay. So again, this is Rebecca Yarros's Fourth Wing, and this is the first in the Empyrean series.
[00:02:19] And it starts out with Violet Sorrengail. One of the things I'm really enjoying in this book is all of the naming. I really like the names in this book. So Violet Sorringale is our protagonist, and she is in a society where people have been trained to go into different quadrants of their society. And she has been trained as a scribe.
[00:02:44] However, her mom, who is a commanding general, in their system has decided that, in fact, she's going to send her to be part of the Dragon Riders instead. And she has a lot of health conditions that make it extra challenging to be in a really physical quadrant, and so in a lot of ways, it seems like a terrible situation, but her mom, I guess, you know, there were several different reasons that she sends her in there, and her mom's pretty merciless in her decisions and pathway, and so Violet does have an older sister, Mira, who has been with the Dragonriders, but of course she was trained to be in them and had grown up doing it, but she is really successful, and so Mira tries to convince her mom to not send her,and that doesn't do her any good, but what she does do is tries to equip Violet with what she might need to get by.
[00:03:41] And so, I'm at the very beginning and I'm just seeing her go through the trials that happen right away and these cadets that come in... I mean it's a very brutal, dystopian situation and there's a lot of death right away and Violet is watching that all around her. And yet, we see her determined, despite people around her who love her and are trying to help her get to the scribes instead, which again is what she's been trained to do, we see her determined to stay and to make it work.
[00:04:14] And we also see her pretty early on grappling with her own sense of what's right and what's wrong and then making decisions based on that and how that kind of butts up against what some of the society has in place as far as the rules. So I'm really loving it so far. Again, I haven't read very much, but it's been fun.
[00:04:33] And I'm sure you are, many of you are like, yes, I know all about this. But again, that's Rebecca Yarros's Fourth Wing and it is a perfect comfort read for me for this season and
[00:04:44] time.
[00:04:44] Jen: Yes, that's such a great, great book. Oh, and you've got the second one ahead of you. And yeah, I can't remember exactly what the planned pub date is for book three. I think it's in 2025, but I'm not sure. But yeah, that book, I just swept through. I just loved it so much.
[00:04:59] Ashley: Yeah, it is a lot of fun. And I foresee that I may have a lot of fantasy and, you know, other like sci fi kinds of books in my 2025 horizon. So we'll see. What about you, Jen? What are you
[00:05:11] reading right now?
[00:05:12] Jen: So I just finished this book this morning, so slight cheat here, but I did want to share it. It is Mona Susan Power's A Council of Dolls. And we always record a little early, so this is actually the read with Tony buddy read pick for November. And I absolutely loved this book.
[00:05:31] It is a multi generation story about three girls. One is set in 1961. It moves back then to 1925 and then back again to 1888 and they are all part of the Dakota nation and each is the daughter of the person who came before, if that makes sense. So essentially what you're getting is this early snapshot and then you get see the daughter's relationship with her mother, and then you go back and figure out what the mother's story was when she was a child.
[00:06:09] And each of them, this is going to sound really weird, but it totally works... each of them has a doll that is both a companion because it's a toy, but they also have the ability to talk to the dolls and to give some sort of advice. And, and that is eventually explained. So the first girl is Sissy. She's the 1961 daughter, and she has a doll who really helps her a lot because her mother is abusive.
[00:06:39] She has a lot of mental health issues, and she is very loving at some points, but then she can very quickly let rage take over and she's very cruel to Sissy. And I think one of the things that works really well in the book is considering the way generational cycles affect, you know, the kids that come along.
[00:07:01] And there's a lot about the Indian boarding schools that were a part of United States history. And you see the effect of those again, just through these generations. And yeah, I just, so each daughter you really are only with them for a short period of time. So it's not like you see most of them grow up.
[00:07:21] But that short time is enough to help us understand how the history of their family and of their people. It just, it doesn't stop with each generation. It just keeps on rolling. And I just found it to be really powerful. It's really well told. It almost has the sense of interlinked novellas. And sometimes that doesn't work for me as well.
[00:07:43] But in this one, it really, really did because I felt like there was such a strong purpose in to have it structured this way and to begin with the more modern story and then go back in the past. So that is Mona Susan Power's A Council of Dolls.
[00:07:57] Wow, Jen, that sounds like a really powerful read.
[00:08:01] Yeah, it was heavier than I expected. We always vote for Tony, and I think I voted for this one. I can't remember, but then I started it after certain events have happened and I was like, Oh, I don't know, but it's so well written that it swept me up anyway. So, and the dolls are great. A great touch.
[00:08:19] Yeah. All right. Well, we are going to shift to our book club discussion. So again, we are talking today about Cynthia Hand's The Afterlife of Holly Chase, and I'll read the publisher's synopsis. "On Christmas Eve, five years ago, Holly was visited by three ghosts who showed her how selfish and spoiled she'd become.
[00:08:35] They tried to convince her to mend her ways. She didn't. And then she died. Now she's stuck working for the top secret company, Project Scrooge, as the latest ghost of Christmas past. Every year they save another miserly grouch. Every year Holly stays frozen at 17 while her family and friends go on living without her.
[00:08:53] So far, Holly's afterlife has been miserable, but this year everything is about to change. All right, Ashley, what were your overall impressions of this one?
[00:09:04] Ashley: I loved this. I thought it was really fun. I think that Holly, even in the beginning... she is, as, as the description suggests, she's pretty Scrooge like, and yet you definitely feel compassion for her. And so I think that's kind of hard to pull off, but I think that Hand does a great job of helping us see what shapes her into the very self centered person she has become and how that impacts her in her life.
[00:09:35] And then we are seeing her in her afterlife and it is still lingering. And so I just love that. I think that the supporting characters in this book are really well crafted, fun, interesting, and unique. And I really liked all of that. early on we meet Stephanie who is like her intern is how it's presented.
[00:09:58] And Stephanie is a great character. She is a perfect foil to Holly. And I just think that we see the ways that our perspectives shape our experience, but also the ways that the events in our life, especially the most impactful ones, shape our perspective. So I think all that's just really well done. What about you, Jen?
[00:10:24] What was an overall
[00:10:25] impression for you?
[00:10:26] Jen: Yeah, I loved it, too. I was reading another book right before starting this one, that another holiday book that will remain unnamed, but it was not working for me. And I started this and it was just, Such a joy and such a relief to read. I feel like Hand is such a confident writer and she was able to give us a sense of Holly's character so quickly and to present her as, like you were saying, like she's a complex character.
[00:10:58] In some ways, she should be unlikable and yet her voice is so strong and you understand her so quickly. Even though there are all of these nuances to her character that yeah, I just... It really worked for me I will say if anyone is a fan of the movie Spirited with Will Ferrell and Ryan Reynolds, which I love, that has become a new Holiday viewing tradition in my family.
[00:11:21] This is a lot like that. That one's also a Christmas Carol retelling that has to do with an organization who goes around Yeah, trying to turn Scrooges. And so when I started it, I was like, Oh my gosh, it's like a YA version of Spirited.
[00:11:34] Ashley: Oh, fun! I haven't seen that movie. I
[00:11:36] will have to watch that.
[00:11:37] Jen: It is really good. Yes. It's on Apple TV.
[00:11:40] Ashley: I need to write
[00:11:41] that down. That
[00:11:41] Jen: Yes. It's a lot of fun. So, but yeah, so I just, I really thoroughly enjoyed it.
[00:11:47] I love A Christmas Carol. I love Dickens and I thought the way Hand used her source material was so, so smart. I just loved it. That was great.
[00:11:55] Ashley: Yeah, yeah, I think that's a good point about the source material, that not only do we all know the story, but Holly reminds us that they all know the story. And so I think like that works really well, that just sort of tongue in cheek approach to saying like, yes, this is exactly what is happening and it is going to play out in exactly this way.
[00:12:15] Sometimes I don't like that kind of thing, but I felt like in this setting she just handles it so well that it makes it fun.
[00:12:24] Jen: All right. Well, what's one specific thing that worked for you?
[00:12:28] Ashley: I think I'm going to hone in on Holly and Ethan, and her getting to know Ethan's experience and what makes him who he is. And I think the reason I like that part so much was that it just shows us how Holly can finally process her own suffering, and how it hardened her, through seeing it happen to someone else.
[00:13:03] And I believe that, you know, I think that a lot of times in our own experiences, we're so tied up in the stories that we can't see. And sometimes they are paralyzing to us or we, you know, either, I mean, often there's like the dichotomy between you run into the story, you're always diving into your own story, or you're running away from it, but very rarely are we able to kind of free ourselves from it.
[00:13:31] And I think that what we see in this is that through developing her compassion and empathy for Ethan, she is doing her own healing. And I think all of that, and I think that's what really worked for me. I mean, I felt like it was believable. I felt like it was sweet. I felt like it still showed how selfish she was.
[00:13:52] That like, even in this setup where she knows what the stakes are for Ethan, which you know, basically is like, him, his life is going to end and he's not going to reform, and he's not going to get a second chance. She still can't let go of it because she loves that experience with him so much, but also I think we see her growing as a person because of what she feels for him that she really couldn't feel for herself, that she was not giving herself the grace that she's able to give him.
[00:14:25] And so I felt like all of that worked really
[00:14:26] well.
[00:14:27] Jen: Yeah, I agree. I, at so many points in the book, it seems like it's going to be a romance, and of course that's not what it's about, but it was interesting to see the way hand played with the conventions of that genre. in order to emphasize other, other plot elements. And I thought that was really smart and would work so well for a YA reader, too.
[00:14:52] Ashley: Yeah, right. I
[00:14:53] mean, in a lot of ways, this is a coming of age story, which is interesting given the afterlife component and the setup and the, you know, the whole framing of the story. And yet really that is in a lot of ways what it is about, is about Holly coming of age, Holly healing, Holly finding a way to move forward after all of the hardship she's experienced, which, you know, I think resonates.
[00:15:17] What about you, Jen? What was something that worked for you?
[00:15:22] Jen: think I'll focus on just the idea of second chances. I mean, I think that's such a compelling part of A Christmas Carol in general, right? Is that Here's a character who gets a second chance to correct mistakes that he's made. And we see that not only through Holly, but also through Stephanie and through Blackpool.
[00:15:41] And in some ways it is crazy to think that one night of a few visions could really make someone totally reconceptualize their life before. So I like that yeah, Holly's a tough case, right? That she is not just going to overhaul everything, like you were saying She's been so hardened by her grief and by the experiences
[00:16:05] she's been through, that it's going to take more than one night she's really savvy to Truly see things through a different lens and the idea that The whole team is having that second chance as well to get through to her in a way that they couldn't before. And that she's able to allow Ethan that second chance as well...
[00:16:26] yeah, all of that just really worked for me and I think it's such a nice, it's such a nice new vision of what Dickens' original story was that here's someone who has some good in him as everyone does and giving him that second chance means that he'll correct his mistakes. It just takes a little longer for some people.
[00:16:45] Ashley: Yeah. Absolutely. A little bit longer, a little bit more opportunities to see from a new perspective.
[00:16:54] Jen: Mm hmm. What's a quotation you want to discuss, Ashley?
[00:16:59] Ashley: This is consistent with what you shared, Jen, and it's a really short one, but it did resonate for me. And it's just, "It's never too late to become what one could have been." And I think that's really at the core of a lot of what we see in this story and exactly what you said, Jen, that this is really about second chances.
[00:17:16] And it's a hope for the reader, it's a hope for the characters in the story that we can be human and be flawed and be selfish and make bad decisions, and yet we still can do better. And I think that's just really lovely. And I felt like I loved we didn't really talk about Boz's character, but I love the role that Boz plays in Holly's life or in her afterlife as the case is where he is so much about Helping her come to her own conclusions.
[00:17:51] And I think we just see that playing out and And There are so many times that the reader might want things to be smoother or easier for her, but then we also are seeing how it is through the hard work that she's doing that she's finding that change. So I feel like, that is one of many examples of quotes in the book that I think are consistent with that message. What about you, Jen? What's a quote that you wanted to share?
[00:18:18] Okay.
[00:18:19] Jen: I had a couple, I think I'm going to go with this one. "I knew what it had been like for me to see my mother again, even if it was just a shadow of things that have been seeing her had made me remember all that I'd slowly been forgetting, like the shape of her lips when she smiled, the way she smelled like Jasmine, that habit she had of clicking her fingernails on the table.
[00:18:37] All of those things about her had been fading out of my memory, but then suddenly she was right there in front of me, beautiful and vibrant and alive." And I think that really resonated with me. because the book really is so much about Holly's grief for, you know, after losing her mother, and the way that that did make her change in a way that she had to work through.
[00:19:05] And I think as someone who's lost a parent, just that emphasis on the little things that made them unique... of course you have big memories, but you also have small memories about just little quirks that made that person who they were. And that really resonated that what a joy to be able to cherish those memories again.
[00:19:28] And so I thought it made sense both that that was meaningful to Holly, but also that that was something she wanted to give to Ethan. And how meaningful that was to... Yes, it's sad, but it's also a comfort to have those memories again. I thought that was really beautiful.
[00:19:44] Ashley: Yeah, I thought all of the exploration of her, where she's doing the work of finding the memories to share, and how we see her uncovering these memories that Ethan has with his dad, but also how there are so many memories that he can't touch. I thought all of that was just really well explored. And yeah, I think you're right, Jen, that like at the core, this is a lot about grief and about how we learn to handle and carry that grief. Or don't. You know, in a lot of ways she really rejects it, and then that's a lot of what makes her into this, like, really hardened person.
[00:20:26] And we see that with Ethan as well, that instead of maybe some healthier avenues of dealing with the grief, they wind up very alone, very isolated. And then with some people who really, you know, with Yvonne for her, and with his grandfather, who are influential enough to accentuate all the wrong things for them, and then that those things are how they survive, but of course are not
[00:20:50] how they're gonna be benefiting the world or taking care of other people or feeling the things that we need to feel in order to have a positive impact with our lives? Yeah, I thought all that worked really well.
[00:21:02] Jen: So what book would you recommend as a pairing for this one?
[00:21:06] Ashley: So, I think I'm gonna go with TJ Klune's Under the Whispering Door. I loved this book and I'll give a little bit of an overview and then just kind of comment on why I... yeah, I don't want to say too much because I think a lot of it, I don't want to do any spoilers, but I think that a lot of what spoke to me about the similarities is how we can be so set in our ways that we lose sight of why life matters or how we can help other people, and we can really get stuck in that.
[00:21:40] So this really focuses on Wallace, and He, he is also he's very curmudgeonly He is kind of a terrible person, and we discover early on that he is dead. And he is discovering that he is dead, and he's pretty mad about that. And so we see a Reaper come to get him and and he does not want to go and is not ready to cross over, essentially.
[00:22:09] And so then he winds up in this tea shop that is this, you know, mystical place that does connect in the real world, but then has all these supernatural elements that the people cannot perceive. And in that space, he really goes through a significant change. And I think similarly, it speaks to how love can change us, and soften us, and make us better people. And then I also think it speaks to how it's never too late to make a change, and to find meaning, and to celebrate that meaning. And so we really see that. I will say I absolutely love that one. I sobbed my way through that. I don't know. Very moving. So I feel like this one touches on a lot of the same ideas about, about grief, about love, about loss, about how we process people dying.
[00:23:13] But I felt a lot of big feelings for this one. Whereas like the Holly Chase, I did not feel as emotionally rung out, I would say, as I did with this. But that, again, is T. J. Klune's Under the Whispering Door, and I do highly recommend it. I thought it was beautifully crafted, and I think it really gets to the core of a lot of these same considerations.
[00:23:37] Jen: Yeah. I think that is such a great pairing because of, just that idea of when you have a chance to look back on your life, what do you see, and what can you change? And yeah, I think Klune with books like that, between that, and The House in the Cerulean Sea and its follow up...
[00:23:57] I just think he has such a touch with those magical books that allow you to examine reality through a different lens. He's so good at that.
[00:24:07] Ashley: Mm hmm. Yeah. What about you, Jen? What's your
[00:24:10] pairing?
[00:24:11] Jen: I had a really hard time with this, but then I thought of Lauren Oliver's Before I Fall. And I think that one works. So I will say it's been a while. I read this right after it first came out, I think in 2010 and I've not read it since. So I'm super fuzzy, but it's a groundhog day story. And when you think about groundhog day stories, they are almost always about someone whose life is not working and who has a chance to fix things by living the same day over and over again.
[00:24:38] And this one focuses on, this is a young adult read as well. It focuses on Samantha Kingston, who reminds me a lot of Holly. She's very privileged. She's very popular. And she is at a party and she is in a car accident leaving the party and she dies. And so she relives the day... The synopsis says she relives that day seven times,
[00:25:03] which I would not have recalled on my own, but yeah, so she just has this chance to both reflect and to make a change that is really reminiscent of Holly Chase. So I think that one would work. Again, it's been a while since I read it, but I loved it. That was Oliver's debut book and that cemented for me her position as an auto read author.
[00:25:23] I just think she, she always has these really interesting premises and just executes so, so well. So that is Lauren Oliver's Before I Fall.
[00:25:33] Ashley: Yeah, I think that was the first I read of her also and I did love that one and you're right that I think it has some of those elements that really speak to those same themes that are coming up here.
[00:25:45] Jen: All right. Well, how many bookish hearts for The Afterlife of Holly Chase?
[00:25:50] Ashley: I did love it. I think I'd say four bookish hearts.
[00:25:52] How about for you, Jen?
[00:25:53] Jen: Yeah, I was thinking four and a half. I mean, it's slight in some ways, but I think it does have that underlying serious message that really worked for me. So yeah, I really enjoyed it.
[00:26:04] Ashley: Yeah, and I would say I'm always wanting to read holiday reads, but a lot of them fall flat for me. So this is definitely one that I would highly recommend if you're looking for seasonal reads because I felt like in that pool where sometimes they don't hold up, I think that this one is a great story and it works really well.
[00:26:25] Jen: Yeah. Agreed.
[00:26:26] We are going to end our episode with our unabridged favorites. Ashley, what's something you want to chat about?
[00:26:32] Ashley: Jen, I never prepare for these ahead of time, and every time I'm like, why didn't I think about this? this? time I'm going to share The Great North, which is a series that I have watched the entirety of before. But again, comfort reading, I'm also comfort watching. And I am thoroughly enjoying re watching that.
[00:26:48] If you have not checked that out, it is a really fun series. It's a family who, It's a cartoon series made for adults. It's a family who live in Alaska together and it is just their journey in Alaska, and Nick Offerman is the dad in the series. And I just love it. It's really fun. What about you, Jen?
[00:27:08] What's your Unabridged
[00:27:09] Favorite for the month?
[00:27:10] Jen: Mine is also a TV series. It is not a comfort watch. So if you like Succession, this might be for you. It's called Industry. I first heard about this on Pop Culture Happy Hour and usually their recommendations work for me. So this is on Max. It is extremely explicit. So definitely not safe to watch with your family.
[00:27:30] It takes place in a bank in London that is like in the financial hub. So it's like all about stocks and bonds. And I don't really understand any of that. And it's fine. You don't have to, but it focuses on people who are just out of college and they want to get into this business. So they are sort of interning there trying to prove themselves so they can get hired in the first season.
[00:27:54] And it's really crappy. They're hazed, essentially, by some bosses who just take great pleasure in humiliating them. But you also see how they start to emerge with these distinct personalities and way of doing things. Of course, they are all brilliant in different ways, but some are able to make that brilliance work and you see the toll it's taking on them as people.
[00:28:19] So it is dark and very cynical and, but also really good, really well written and really well acted. So again, Succession, yeah, is a, is probably the closest comparison I can think of. So I'm really enjoying it. There are three seasons out so far and each has like eight episodes. So it also doesn't take long to get through.
[00:28:38] So that is Industry.
[00:28:40] Ashley: There you go.
[00:28:40] You know That it's not my cup of tea, but I'm glad you're enjoying it.
[00:28:45] Ha ha ha.
[00:28:45] Jen: All right, everyone. Well, thank you so much for listening. We did just want to let you know we are going to re release our Holly Jolly Diwali episode. So if you're interested, you can listen to that and we will be back with new episodes in January.
[00:28:59] Thanks so much for listening and for supporting Unabridged.
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